Please press play, and read.
Today, Leopoldo López is celebrating – if that’s the right word – his 43rd birthday from solitary confinement in Ramo Verde military prison, which he has called home for 70 days now as he awaits trial for charges of arson and criminal instigation.
His cell, where he spends 22 hours a day, is a minuscule 9 square meter space containing a bed and a sink. Ever since he was jailed, López has been kept in a maximum security area known to prison wardens as “the annex, ” on the second floor of the building. When he was first interned in his cell, “the annex” seemed to have suffered a small fire: the walls were covered in soot, the lamps were melted, and there was very little light. His legal team says some maintenance has been performed since then to improve at least that aspect.
When Leopoldo was sent to the annex, the authorities at Ramo Verde immediately set about increasing security there. A series of fences were added between each stairwell, as well as several additional cells, since assigned to mayors Enzo Scarano and Daniel Ceballos, as well as San Diego municipal police chief Salvatore Lucchese.
Leopoldo remains in solitary confinement with no end in sight. He can only receive visits from close family members and his lawyers. Access has been denied to his priest for confession, and he has not been allowed to attend mass. It’s worth noting that the Committee Against Torture, the European Court of Human Rights, and the Inter-American Court of Human Rights have made it clear that solitary confinement should be an exceptional measure of limited duration that is subject to strict judicial review when applied and prolonged.
Leopoldo’s legal team has had repeated problems with correspondence, since he is forbidden from sending written messages to the outside. All letters sent to him are extensively scrutinized and in several instances, have been retained altogether.
His legal team has also had problems with legal documents, which are also subject to extensive review by the prison guard, an issue which violates client-attorney privilege and professional standards of privacy. These revisions have been carried out to such an extent that sometimes legal council has been strip searched on their way out of meetings with their client, in order to make sure that no information is being leaked.
The prison authorities restrict access to any material deemed “politically sensitive.” He may not receive books, flyers and other documents that may be considered forms of political proselytism.
Last friday, a journalist and photographer from the spanish paper ABC accompanied López’s wife, Lilian Tontori and her two children to Ramo Verde. According to this report, they were held against their will inside the compound for over three hours. The photographer’s camera was confiscated and he was interrogated at length. As punishment for having brought members of the press to Ramo Verde, Lilian has been told she will not be allowed to visit Leopoldo today, on his birthday, or for the next two weeks.
93 thoughts on “Ramo Verde To You”
He shines his light for everyone , but not everyone appreciates the light.
The kind of evil that imprisons a man like LL,and does not even allow his family to visit on his birthday is bone chilling,but even more bone chilling are the many opposition folks who seem not to be evil, but have more or less forgotten him.It raises many questions.
firepigette: People in Venezuela haven’t forgotten López. They’re just busy trying to survive.
One thing should not preclude the other.Everyone’s fate is tied together.I see people taking the time for swimming pools, luncheons, and concerts…the poor might have more excuse…but others? Come on.
This looks like the situation Quico foresaw a while ago: That in May, most would have had forgotten about Leopoldo López. I didn’t believe at the time, but I think it has become a reality. A shame than he, along with Ceballos and Scarano have to be in jail for no reason other than to satisfy the government’s macabre plans.
Here’s the article you mention in case someone would like to re-read it: http://caracaschronicles.com/2014/02/22/visualize-may/
Interesting those quotes from la Primera Combatiente. From the last comment, one deduces that Chavez, though guilty as charged, was released from Yare ‘thanks to public pressure’. The now-popular notion that releasing a political prisoner merely foments impunity was apparently not so much of an issue back in 1994.
I hope my assessment is wrong but this is exactly a consequence of looking for a fast solution to a bigger issue. If only they waited 3 more month, things would have been different.
They knew Capriles had a plan, granted, it was a long term plan but they did not want to wait. I know about a conversation that happened during Christmas between all of them. I am not Capriles fan, I actually dislike him but this time he was right. If after 15 years you only get close to 50% after all the shit we have been through that means we have a bigger problem than just impose an exist like LaSalida.
I really feel sorry for Lilian, it must be very very hard to go through this moment. I know her, I don’t really share many of their believes but that doesn’t mean she or LL disserve this situation. I hope she can have it back in less than 10 years
Pepe Trueno, A Fast solution ?Can you explain? I don’t think anybody decent deserves this .You say his imprisonment was a consequence of his looking for a fast solution? I say his imprisonment is because Venezuela is a dictatorship with no Justice.The authorities do what they want.
Firepigette, please do not assume things I did not say. I did not say LL deserves this, this is a completely unfair and illegal prosecution. I think LL imprisonments is completely out of law. I am not against LL, stop acting like chavismo when someone gives an opinion that shakes your idealisms.
He is not a kid, he knows by experience that Chavismos wants him behind bars so do not give them a reason to do it. Running in front of everyone on a battle field will give you the chance to be the first to kill the enemy but it also increases your chances of dying. If you can assemble a majority that runs with you on the battle field you still have the chance to kill the enemy but your odds of been killed are reduced.
Wars are not won by guts but by brains, impulsive people are more prone to fail because they do not analyze all the scenarios.
The 2/14 outcome was a surprise for you? did you really never thought about the chance of a student been killed and the opposition been blamed for it? Students been killed where not an accident, do you think a peaceful rally would not be more beneficial for the opposition?
If you are going to propose something like la salida you need to have a plan and that is exactly what I criticize, we are here and we have been here because there is no plan. Chavismo do have one, they want to impose a bunch of things and they are doing it. One by one, they are doing it and you are just reacting to their actions.
On the other hand, the freaking Capriles is talking and visiting the real chavismo grounds. Shaking hands y bailando con la mas fea because he understood the only way to overcome the government is getting people convinced that we are not coming back to Adecos or Copeyanos era. Yes, it is a very long process but needs to be done. As I say before, I am not Capriles fan but this time the man is doing the right thing. IMHO.
When you say it is a logical cosequence of his actions it is akin to saying he deserves it.It is a kissing cousin to ” you made your bed now lie in it”because you are asumming that he was concious of his action and his subsequentimprisonment was a natural consequence. i say his imprisonment was the lack of Justice in Venezuela and Ll is the poster child for this fact.No I was not surprised but in my opinion his incarcelation shines a great light.Your statement about wiinning wars with the mind and not the gut is a complclated one to answer, especially on the day when one suppsedly should be expounding LL s contributions.It is his birthdqy after all
I think it was a logical consequence, if you play with fire you might get burn. If I think it is just and fair? No, I don’t think it is. It showed once again how biased the judicial system is in Venezuela.
You just pointed out our biggest criteria difference, I don’t think he contributed anything by getting into prison. I think he actually affected the opposition but who am I to think that way, right?
He deserves to be free, I am not arguing that. And he still deserves to be free tomorrow even when it is not his birthday.
What a thing to say about someone whose life is on the line for Venezuela….whether you agree with his tactics or not
Por Venezuela? Really? Are you that romantic?
The same way Bolivar fought for our separation from Spain? Did fight for Venezuela or his interest? Chavistas can argue Chavez sacrificed himself for Venezuela, based on your statement he should be a martyr as well.
We need to stop endiosando (I don’t know how to say this in English) political figures, they are humans that go to the restroom and take a dump like you and me but decided to search into politics instead of been a doctor or an engineer. Yes, he could have been an attorney or get into the family business but he decided to go for politic based on ego or power rush and not because he “loves Venezuela”. The martyr and “I am here because I love my Venezuela” slogan is not the reality, we need to be more pragmatic.
The day we see politicians as people that work for us and not as gods that must solve your problem we might change as a society. Politicians are the superlative of a home owner association manager, he is in charge of administering your country but that doesn’t make them a better person than you.
She didn’t say he deserved to be imprisoned.
No he did not use those words, blame was placed.
Most Venezuelans have short attention and memory spans , they get distracted easily and they forget easily , Thats one of the govt assets , dealing with people whose memory of things gets erased in max 2 weeks flat, So you need reiteration and constant repetition for things to stick in the mind of people.
Even now I detect that the memory of the dear defunct leader is becoming less distinct each day that passes . Of course having once registered in peoples memory an image becomes easier to recall if anything happens to bring it back some time later,
Facility of Recognition is a plus for a politician , the more he appears in the news the more easy it is to recognize him the next time his name is mentioned. What really happens sometimes is that the voice dies of memory dies down with the passing of time but ii something happens to bring the memory back again it can become very loud very quickly . Memory is not constant it oscilates ,
Dont think that LL is going to remain forgotten for long !!.
The conditions of LL’s arrest and confinement are further unequivocal evidence that he is a political prisoner. Obviously, this is just one of many examples of this type of injustice.
It is sad to see a country of so many good people, who overcame this kind of dark past in their history and the history of the region, being dragged back into it by a collection of criminals, cowards, mediocrities and liars.
I’m sorry firepiguette but pepe trueno is right. I don’t think LL or LT deserve this situation or any other political prisoner deserves being confined for their beliefs, but it is the consequence of giving himself up. They should have know the type of beast they where aginst. My father escaped Romania when he was 14, enrrolled in La Legion Etranger, and fought for the Allies in WWII and used to tell me stories of the French Resistance. Nobody gave themselves up to the Nazis.
When Teodoro and Pompeyo were caught, imprisoned and tortured, they spectacularly escaped… Teodoro twice, and they never gave themselves up! So I still don’t understand what LL sought to achieve by giving himself up in sacrifice to these power hungry gorillas.
“Teodoro twice, and they never gave themselves up! So I still don’t understand what LL sought to achieve by giving himself up in sacrifice to these power hungry gorillas.”
He called their bluff and made them look bad (worse) in international opinion. It made them have to react and be on the defensive rather than the other way around. It raised his international profile, gives him more credibility, and forever dispelled those who would dismiss him as another sifrino who would head to Miami whenever things got really rough for him.
Maybe he thought we needed a high profile ‘martyr’, so to speak.
Whether that was worth his loss of freedom is another question. If he is still sitting in jail in 5 years, we will all know the answer to that question.
He will be sitting in Jail for as long as Simonovis or Baduel or any of the PP’s of this regime. I was hoping that he could work for the resistance enconchado. But…
I wonder what was the purpose of his raising his intl profile? Pray tell for what?
This way of thinking is what keeps Venezuela what it is today.Even the heroes are criticized. Students and good people are jailed while criminals are on the streets, and no matter how many people point it out the Venezuela problem remains, because the blind spots are still there.
You need to understand that people have to do what is right no matter the consequences and when you do you will be on your way.
Watch “Sophie Scholl: The Final Days”
It might help you understand
Firepiguette I understand perfectly well, but I don’t agree. I agree to disagree with you which is what democracy is. Isn’t it? I don’t agree with LL giving himself up. Era juego cantado. But this blog section, “comments” is for writing our opinions. They don’t have to be black or white. There are more than 50 shades of gray, right? And mine is what I already stated.
So is mine,and I reiterate…in my opinion criticizing the opposition is this way is the surest way of keeping Venezuela where it is today.
The opposition has been dysfunctional from the beginning , and I think we all can agree on that one.If so maybe it is time to look at changing some of its outlooks and values.
It is so absolutely shocking to everyone I know, who I have showed this thread to that in Venezuela there would actually be opposition people criticizing other opposition members who are in jail for giving their all whether it was the best thing to do or not.
If you cannot see the correlation between this and tacitly , even unconsciously ,supporting the regime, then I am sorry but I do not think you understand the point in the movie.
There’s people that disagreed with López at giving himself up, yet understood the historical moment and yes, the bravery of said act and gave their full support.
I believe that clandestine politics would have been more useful, but is his decision and I respect it and support it. And, to Pepe Trueno: Capriles lost the right to lead the opposition when he decided to not fight to claim his victory at April 14. Period.
GAWD, GIVE IT A REST, WOMAN. Your finger-wagging is obnoxious. Get it through your head. And take some Prozac.
People are free to come to their own conclusions, whenever, without the ridiculous battering ram from North Carolina.
Firepiguette… You may think what you want. Freedom of speech, remember? You have your opinion. i have mine. But puhhhhleez do not patronize on how or why or when I should think about the opposition. I re pe at, this is a comments section. If we were all commenting exactly the same comments, then we would be just like the orwellian chavistas. I agree to disagree with you, LL or x y or Z. Thanks…
Leopoldo should have been jailed a long time ago for his involvement in overthrowing the government in 2002. What do you think would happen in any other country if a political leader openly called on people to overthrow the government? Look at the US, where Bradley Manning simply exposed government abuses, never calling for the overthrow of the government, and he’s been held in solitary confinement and tortured for years on end. Get a grip on reality people.
Then I tell you, that chavez would have deserve death penalty along with the rest of his “4fiasco party”.
But then they all were forgiven solely because Rafael Caldera was chavez’s godfather.
Go and shove your sickening hipocrisy where the sun doesn’t hit.
Uh, hypocrisy? Chavez went to jail for his coup attempt. The only hypocrisy here is among those who think Leopoldo should not go to jail for doing something that in any other country on the planet he would be in jail for, and that Chavez also went to jail for. Get a grip on reality.
You are the one who needs to get a grip on reality. Chávez was responsible for killing dozens of people. Leopoldo was not responsible for killing anyone of those he was accused of killing. In fact: three of them (the ones who died on that day for which he is accused of doing something) were murdered by a bodyguard of the minister of Interior & Justice”, former coup monger and murderer Rodríguez Torres.
Chávez, although a murderer, was released only 2 years after he went to jail and he was not even sentenced to anything, so he had an absolutely clean sheet. Instead, he should have remained in prison for over 24 years, getting out in 2016.
Oh, so it doesn’t really matter if you carry out a coup, what matters is how many people die? Got it. Great logic Kepler. And, by the way, some 20 people died on April 11th, 2002. On April 12th Leopoldo was on TV smiling and talking about how they carried out the plan….Not to mention how many have died from this most recent attempt at “la salida”. Keep spinning it.
2002? Not even the Pseudo-Justice that we have in Venezuela was able to make López responsible for that.
So: don’t mix 2002 with 2014.
Y tú te cagas en lo que diga Amnistía Internacional, por lo visto:
By the way: a regime where the previous head of the Supreme Court says separation of powers is bad for the State and where the current one was an active politician supporting Chávez and running for governor is a joke when it comes to justice.
Yes, base your decision on what a biased supreme court had to say. Don’t base it on basic logic and video evidence, which shows that Leopoldo was involved in rounding up and imprisoning elected officials, was openly calling the military to overthrow the government, and was on television the next day with the coup planners admitting exactly how they carried out the whole ordeal.
Just ignore all that evidence, and base your entire decision on what the supreme court said. Great argument. Flawless.
As for Amnesty International, yes, isn’t it so horrible when a political leader is hunted down and jailed? We all know Leopoldo would never do anything like that:
I wonder what would happen in the United States if a political leader openly called for the overthrow of the president and organized violent protests that resulted in deaths? Hmmmmmm. I suppose the US would not do anything to that person.
I recall millions of people in the U.S. openly calling for the resignation of Richard Nixon, and eventually, he did. I also recall millions calling for the resignation of Bill Clinton. He didn’t. I don’t recall any of the people calling for this being jailed for it.
Check your lies better, hypocrite.
In april 11 all the murders were done by the “pistoleros de puente llaguno”, richard peñalver and his death squad commanded by freddy bernal and sent by chavez himself to “defend the revolution”
The wax doll was sent to prison and was TWO YEARS ONLY BECAUSE HIS GODFATHER RAFAEL CALDERA GOT HIM OUT OF THERE JUST BECAUSE, it’s the biggest mix of “palanca” and “nepotismo” of Venezuela’s history, that traitor should have been holed in that cell 30 years with no right ever to see the light of day.
As long as you zealots keep justifying chavez’s coup and betrayal to Venezuela, you won’t have any moral ground AT ALL to say peep about coups against that murderer.
Also, you know what happens to people to actively try to overthrow EU’s government (nothing to do with this case, but as you like sooo much to compare Venezuela to EU by some stupid trauma, go ahead), they DO NOT get jailed forever and ever without a fair trial, psycho.
“In april 11 all the murders were done by the “pistoleros de puente llaguno””
Hahahahahaha!! Not even the most idiotic opposition people believe that… well, except you I guess. There is plenty of evidence that the deaths were pre-planned by opposition forces, as both the testimony of Otto Neustadl and Mayela Leon has shown. Recordings from the Policia Metropolitana at the time were discussing how they were shooting people from the top of a building.
But, hey, don’t look at the evidence. Just keep repeating the same lies they told you on April 12th!
And I didn’t say anything to justify Chavez’s coup. He went to jail for it, and so should Leopoldo Lopez.
As for people in the US getting a fair trial and not getting jailed forever, why don’t you ask Bradley Manning about that. Or maybe take a trip to Guantanamo Bay and see how those guys are doing?
I’m not sure I’ve ever seen a comment more full of nonsense bullshit as the one you just posted.
Also, betty, bad news for you f****r, I was in that march in april 11, and I’m still alive because the metropolitan policemen who were framed for the murders helped us to escape the hail of bullets that rained from the chavist gunmen of the death circles.
You are one of those poor brainwashed sheep who only listen whatever shit your masters decide do shove down your throat, the corpse never paid anything for his murderous coup, so, once again, no chavist will ever have any moral ground ever to criticize any other coup as long as they continue to keep their head inside their asses claiming that the corpse “took responsibility for his ‘love quixotada'” where almost two hundred innocent people got murdered in cold blood by traitors who only wanted to get their clutches on the national arks for their true master, the ever-interloper and invader fidel the mummy castro.
By the way anybody know where all the generals that overthrew Chavez in 2002 are currently imprisoned ??, wasnt one of them sent as embassador to Portugal ??, Isnt one of those that restored Chavez to power now in prison ??
Do military men in this country get the same treatment for ‘attempted revolt’ as civilians ?? is feeling sympathetic about a regime change without taking up arms or joining in an armed revolt a crime in Venezuela ?? Wasnt there some kind of Supreme Tribunal Decision that considered that in 2002 there had been not a coup d etat but a ‘power void’ ?? What was the legal consequence of that decision ??
My memory is terrible these days !! Oh wait havent the polls discovered that about 60 odd percent of Venezuelans would welcome either a regime change or a change in the regime !! Should they also go to jail ?? its all so confusing !!
“feeling sympathetic about a regime change”
What a wonderful euphemism for actively engaging in the overthrow of a government. Leopoldo not only helped plan the 2002 coup, he went on national television the next day with the coup leaders as they openly admitted it, explaining exactly what the plan was.
Bill bass is so astoundingly dishonest that he compares this to the people in Venezuela who want regime change. You see, there’s a big difference in WANTING something, or SUPPORTING something, and actually going out and carrying out a coup to overthrow a government.
It really is amazing how underdeveloped your understanding of democracy is. A lot of people wanted to get rid of the Bush government too, or the Obama government now. Do you think that is the same as actively executing a plan to overthrow Bush or Obama? For heaven’s sake, try to have at least a minimal level of honesty.
Wax doll murdered hundreds of people in 4f and didn’t pay for that.
He also sent his death squads to kill dozens on april 11 and didn’t pay for that either.
You are just a hypocrite.
I wonder if Chavez understanding of democracy was the same when he attempted his coup against democratically elected CAP than when a coup was attempted against him . Of course when he attempted it , it was glorious feat (which the regime celebrates each anniversary) , whereas when one was attempted against him it was a betrayal against democracy . funny how ones understanding of democracy depends on who is at the receiving end of a coup. Could it be that Chavez understanding of democracy was ‘undeveloped’.??
I dont have a recollection of any tv event in which people said that they had been planning a coup to oust anybody, even a president who was intent on destroying the institutions of democracy , there might have been some people who were glad that after Chavez renounced his presidency (as his minister of defense declared ) there would be a change for a more democratic style of governance but thats not evidence that they were involved in any planned coup . As I understand it the ouster ocurred in response to a massacre of inocent demonstrators by regime goons .
Moreover as I understand it protests against a goverment are allowed by law , what is not allowed by law is to massacre the protesters or to torture them or abuse their basic human rights . If calling for a protest to govt misdeeds and abuses is a crime then the regime guilty of those abuses is no longer democratic nor legitimate and may cause it to lose the protection that constitutional rules grant democratic government from being turned from office .
Still I have yet to recieve an honest answer to some questions I made previously. I was hoping someone would enlighten me on these matters but no one seems to care.
Oh heavens to Betty, Bill Blass, you don’t recall that “Leopoldo not only helped plan the 2002 coup, he went on national television the next day with the coup leaders as they openly admitted it, explaining exactly what the plan was”?
It’s all there, in the docudrama script by Pinky Productions, including testimony from an undercover agent from the C-I-A who verifies that he gave Leopoldo money AND advice on planning the civic-military coup of 2002. Hot, hot, hot. Oliver Stone is beside himself for having gone to Venez, when the script was up for optioning rights.
“Biggest regret of my life,” said Stone.
“I dont have a recollection of any tv event in which people said that they had been planning a coup to oust anybody”
That’s because you are a raging ignoramus, and don’t know even the most basic history of your own country.
Leopoldo and his buddies lay the plan out pretty clearly don’t they? Mayela Leon and Otto Neustatdl also gave testimony showing the deaths were pre-planned. Patricia Poleo gave an interview where she goes into detail about how the coup was planned, with the very people that are in the video above. Recordings from the Policia Metropolitana show they were shooting civilians from atop a tower near the march.
I can post all of those videos if you like. But first let’s see how you digest the above video, which, after 12 years you had still never seen. That is some STUNNING ignorance…
jajajajaja! Betto: you got your source from The Revolution will not be Televised? Really? Really, Betty? Was it that phoney insincere voice-over that turned you on? That is, following the edited switcheroos in timelines? Nothing like lazy research from flaky sources.
Oh, and P.S. where’s Leopoldo when you need him to support your claim? I guess that would be too-great of a stretch for the Marxist mockumentarians.
What a dunce.
What a joke of a defense, syd. Pathetic. The video clearly shows them discussing how they planned it. It is of no relevance what documentary it comes from.
Are you going to claim that the conversation in the video about the “plan” never took place? Thanks for so clearly demonstrating your capacity for incredible dishonesty…
Sure, Betto. That’s why you look tarnished by association. In your next roost, do continue to use a mishmash of AV clips, including those from the phoney The Revolution Will Not Be Televised to show exactly how LL helped with the army plan in 2002. That is, before he commanded the Soviet Army to overtake Berlin. Next!
Yes, when you can’t prove something wrong, just call it “phoney” (sic) and close your eyes and cover your ears.
Hahaha! Thanks for reminding me how idiotic Venezuelan oppos are.
You sound like the reincarnation of “Hector” the Molester.
Betty, let me get this straight, your main argument is that “Leopoldo should have been jailed a long time ago for his involvement in overthrowing the government in 2002.”
Firstly, if you are right about that, then isn’t it a failure of this government to not have processed him, back then for that, instead of processing him now for something for which they have no evidence that holds water?
Secondly, if you are truthful about your argument being all about the law, then to be consistent you should also be claiming that many of the current government should have been jailed a long time ago for their involvement in overthrowing an earlier government, and that today the current government should also be processing them now for something for which there is no evidence that holds water.
Either way, the opposition’s stand on either matter is irrelevant in determining that your stand is flimsy, at best.
Question #1: Yes.
Question #2: Some of them were jailed, and later released.
Any more idiotic questions?
Note that in the first answer you, directly, acknowledge that they are trying to process LL now for things for which they have no evidence that holds water, and, indirectly, that they were too incompetent to process LL for things for which you claim they do have evidence.
Also, note that your second answer implies that some were not jailed, yet you aren’t calling for those to be jailed, even on trumped up evidence the same way you acknowledge and applaud LL is.
Also note that by putting your two answers together, having been processed and released seems to be OK with you, which implies you should be equally calm about LL being free as with those who were jailed and released, since LL was processed and came out clean from that process, therefore released. If you accept that those released by the system are acceptably clean in one case, you must accept it in the other, unless of course the idiocy is not in the questions…
The actual idiocy of that troll is in trying to justify how the corpse never paid at all any responsibility for his murderous betrayal on Venezuela in the 4f, while trying to condemn LL just because he isn’t on his knees crying for mercy (As the corpse did against the “viejas locas del cafetal” in 2002).
It all comes to his own idiotic double standard: “The corpse’s coup was good because he was in MY party, while everything that’s done to stop his bullshit-ridden madness is a bad coup because is from the people I hate.”
The only way that chavists could have any moral ground to claim any punishment or to talk at all about coups would have been if the wax doll himself along with his gang of traitorous murderers spent 30 years locked in a cell, the legal punishment for their crimes.
Syd’s denial of the above video even as it stares him in the face is a perfect example.
So if you don’t fall for +televised&as_oq=&as_eq=&as_nlo=&as_nhi=&lr=&cr=&as_qdr=all&as_sitesearch=http%3A%2F%2Fdaniel-venezuela.blogspot.com&as_occt=any&safe=images&tbs=&as_filetype=&as_rights=”>PSF progaganda , you are dishonest.
Decime otro de vaquero’, pue’.
Think I will reread The Silence and the Scorpion.
The video shows an actual television interview with the coup leaders, but you all are so pathetic that the only defense you can come up with is to attack this documentary. Hahahaha!
What a bunch of pathetic losers.
You are the only loser here, latching to your moronic lies just because the truth is that your comrades are nut a gang of thieves and murderers.
Wax doll murdered hundreds of people in 4f and didn’t pay for that.
He also sent his death squads to kill dozens on april 11 and didn’t pay for that either.
You are just a hypocrite.
I dont see capriles pr even LL saying anything in that video , there is this military gent (who is he? ,where is he now? ) saying something about a plan : I still must say that I nonestly have no recollection of Capriles or LL talking on TV 12 years ago about their involvement in a plan ( which is what you stated) : I do remember talking then to two close friends who where in the march when the shots started to fly killing a person next to them , from their vantage they knew the general direction of where the shots where coming from and they appeared to be coming from where some Chavista goons were stationed . A video was made of them shooting towards the marchers . I remeber the video. My question still stands , where are the military people who ousted Chavez imprisoned ?? if anybody was responsible for the overthrow it was them, why did the minister of defense who went on tv and declared that chavez had resigned creating a power vacuun never get accussed of anything , If the proof of Capriles and LL involvement in a coup plan was so clear why where they never indicted ?? If it was so clear that they were involved why was Capriles accused instead of harrasing some govt related guy , the Cuban embassador ?? (this incident I do remember seeing on tv live and what I saw was Capriles trying to help
save the guy from some very aggresive crowd , nothing more) , why the funny tutti fruti accent by the lady narrating the events , why do you refer to Venezuela as ‘your country’ , are you a foreigner ? why dont you answer these questions if you know so much about the history of MY country ?
My god you really know nothing about even the most recent history of Venezuela. And you go on and on all over this blog writing your ignorant opinions when you don’t even know this basic history? What a joke.
The reason many of the people involved in the coup were never indicted is because the supreme court initially ruled that it was not a coup. That wasn’t overturned until 2004, and investigations began. But Chavez then issued a pardon in 2007, ending the investigations.
The member of the metropolitan police who shot and killed people WERE tried and convicted, and remain in jail.
Hilarious how you still try to act like a coup never happened, when the people in the video above are CLEARLY telling everyone how they planned it ahead of time and carried it out.
You all are so dishonest it is sickening.
And regardless if Leopoldo doesn’t say anything in the above clip (he did talk in the full interview), do you really think he would go on television the next day with the people who planned and carried out the coup if he wasn’t involved?? Do you really think he would lead up the hunt for Chavista officials if he wasn’t involved in the coup? Do you have one ounce of honesty in your whole body?
You still squirm silly in a vain attempt to avoid addressing the real issues and questions i raise in my past comments, and only cherry pick those that you think you can answer with specious or evasive arguments.,
Take note that Chavez was indicted and condemned for attempting to overthrow a democratically elected president while those you falsely accuse of participating in the 2002 events were never even charged much less indicted of any attempted coup , Moreover even If they had participated indirectly what made their actions different from those executed by Chavez to overthrow CAP !! Why do you condem one and glorify the other ??. Your position is patently dishonest , you are a dishonest person and since ‘every whore thinks other women are whores’ (Proust dixit) you think that everyone is as dishonest as your are .
You misrepresent the actions of HCR and LL as hunting up the flying regime criminals when the truth which i saw myself in TV is that they attempted to protect them from the ire of the people , even the corrupt tribunals of Chavez couldnt in the end find them guilty of anything .!!
I am through with listening to any more of your lies , misrepresentations and nonsense , try them on someone of your own credulous level !! .
“those you falsely accuse of participating in the 2002 events were never even charged much less indicted of any attempted coup ”
I already explained up above why they weren’t indicted. The Supreme Court initially ruled it was not a coup, and then Chavez pardoned them in 2007. Can you read?
Just because people aren’t indicted for something doesn’t mean they didn’t do it. Use your brain, and try to be just the slightest bit honest with yourself.
And I never glorified Chavez’s coup. Another straw man argument. Keep spinning your web of dishonesty…
With regard to the debate above between Firepigette, Pepe Trueno, and Syd: There is an interesting peculiarity in Occidental culture that wants blame to be assigned to single party. Other cultures more easily accept the concept that culpability comes in shades of grey and that there are both proximate and ultimate causations. Furthermore, we tend to avoid assigning any blame at all to those who have become victimized. As an example of this not connected with the Venezuela, in the U.S. the events of the attacks on the Benghazi Consulate in Libya are somewhat contentious. Part of the problem is that some of the blame for that event lies with Ambassador J. Christopher Stevens for unwisely insisting on going to that location, overriding the advice of his security detail. However, since he was one of the ones killed, our culture is reluctant to place any blame whatsoever on him. Nevertheless, that decision is one of the proximate causes of that event, even though the ultimate cause was the actions of the persons who planned and carried out the attack. In the case of L.L. and his decisions, I think the jury is still out, and we will have to wait for events to unfold before we can truly assess L.L.’s and HCR’s relative wisdom in their selection of strategies.
Revolutions are interesting that that they are always carried out by amateurs in unique situations that will never be repeated. As a result, the rebels tend to make a lot of mistakes. On the other side, the intrenched authority that is being contested is usually out of touch with the population (otherwise, there wouldn’t be a need for a revolution) and tend to make many mistakes as well.
Roy , your comment is very insightful , thank you for sharing it with us , there is an added factor , that frequently things happen by chance , by happenstance , through the intervention of events or conditions that people never realized might affect the consequences of their conduct . in which case there is no one to blame , the vernacular formulation of this idea is that ‘shit happens’ and that often we cant control fortuitous events from happening . Whenever things happen where no one is to blame we still would like to live in a world where blame or praise can be attributed on someone , where human conduct is always the key factor that determines our fate. so we start looking for people to blame even if blind happenstance is the culprit.
I mean this not as something which affects your ongoing discussion with others in this blog but simply as a general comment . !! once again thanks !!
Thanks Bill. I appreciate that very much, coming from you. Your comments are always intelligent and well considered. I agree with your point about “shit happens”. While we humans really want to believe that we live in a deterministic universe which is predictable, the reality is that the complexity of all the factors involved makes it impossible to accurately calculate the results of our actions and those of others. Recently, Chaos Theory in mathematics has been shedding a lot of light on this subject. But nevertheless, even without perfect knowledge, we still have to act. To take no action is to sit on the sidelines and be a spectator rather than a player. Regardless of the outcome, I admire the courage of all the real players in this unfolding drama. However imperfect their reasoning and planning are, they are in the game.
There is a applicable quote from Heinlein I like: “To get anywhere, or even live a long time, a man has to guess, and guess right, over and over again, without enough data for a logical answer.”
Those able to see culpability in shades of grey, able to see the immaturity among actors within the shifting sands of unfolding, if not volatile events, have lived through a dictatorship or two, and/or know the lay of the land through generations-worth of family grapevines. In contrast, when a foreigner starts dictating terms from a soapbox to members of the affected culture, wherever they may be, clearly that person has a different social and political imprint, does not grasp the historical and social nuances of the affected culture, and/or suffers from an mood disorder.
Roy, I can hardly can hardly call the above a debate ; a debate would have far higher standards of conduct.
As for Syd last comment….once again slander.
Roy and Bill Blass,
My comments were not well understood for what ever reason ( mine or theirs I do not know) but I never said that blame was not present in both sides.
I said that not appreciating someone who gives his all for a cause is detrimental to a cause.This is not just a matter tactic, but of ethics as well.
I am well aware that there are many in the opposition who are to blame….I know many of them personally.
The opposition has performed miserably and continues to do so, but people keep repeating the same self defeating behaviors.
As for Syd last comment….once again slander.
Firepigette: One, if you related to my general comment, your subjective interpretation is in high gear. Two, if you were not hiding behind an anonymous handle, and my comments were not of a general nature, you might have a slim and costly chance to pull the LIBEL card. Know the difference between it and SLANDER. That is, in the English language, which you purport to know more than anyone else, after your earlier denigration of my use of same. Grow up.
It is precisely the lack of shades of grey that I see in the opposition argument when it comes to planning strategy( many are quite doctrinaire, legalistic, and blind to content and nuance when it comes to assigning blame).
When you are tying to win you need to pick and choose your battles -Otherwise you will surely lose.
Whether people like to admit it or not, this is a battle between those who want to the government out, and those who want it in.Those who are in between seem to be favoring the regime right now in terms or tactic.The end result of that will be that the regime will be fortified.
The struggle to assign blame to LL at this point is definitely a losing battle for the opposition but places nicely into the hands of opposition critics.
Suggest you move to Venezuela and start protesting visibly. We’ll be rooting for you. Send us pix!
Ah, the old “go and get shot in a protest” and “you’re not in Venezuela so shut up” cards, they never fail to disarm and invalidate all the other person’s arguments, right?
It’s like the Godwin’s Law applied to Venezuela (The more a discussion lasts, the more likely is that somebody ends being called a nazi), but instead of being called nazi, in Venezuela the more a discussion lasts, the more likely is that “you’re not right because you’re not getting shot and beaten up in a protest” or “you can’t say anything because you’re not in Venezuela” lines are used as the ultimate argument that overrides all the others.
Correct.This is a sign that someone feels like they have no valid argument.
What is even stranger is when some strangers purport to know personal things about a strangers life when they have no clue of what they do or do not do, or what they have done or have not done.
In Venezuela there is very little in the way of Justice, and I think that there aresome who have become used to that fact.
Your use of logic is completely false. Syd is not implying Firepigette is wrong because she is abroad.
She is saying Firepigette is very hypocritical when she is demanding people to do things she herself is not ready to do.
Knowing whether or not I am doing anything or not Kepler would mean that you and Syd are also wrong to opine because there is not proof that either or you do anything significant either, and that she knows what I do or do not do, which is of course absurd.Neither of you know me at all.
There is nothing you can do or say to change that, except make yourselves looks like fools.
Syd lives in Canada, and you live in Belgium.So what?This is not debate dear.It only shows the limited arguments you have when confronted with views you do not like.
You are not very good at logic, are you?
“demanding people to do things she herself is not ready to do”
I do NOT live in Venezuela and I am not one to tell people living in Venezuela they should put their lives at risk when I am not doing it.
You do NOT live in Venezuela and you ARE telling people living in Venezuela they should put their lives at risk when you are not doing it.
The difference between both statements is more than the use of pronouns.
The hypocrisy is, indeed, absurd, Kep. That was precisely my point. And you got it. Some folks just need to rev themselves up by pretending to know all the answers. But faced with a commitment to the fire-brand ideals that they bunch on the tip of their rattling sabers, from the safety of a far-away perch, they hide. And they obfuscate, finding blame in another when they get found out. The personality and level of fantasy easily come through the words that form ideas over the long term.
Well, all this started because I only suggested LL is not a hero, that he is just a man who decided to get more visibility using a plan that I don’t think will work, if he ever had a plan.
Firepigette got offended because I criticized LL, he/she mentioned this kind of criticisms affects the opposition without thinking that LL and MCM did the same over many other MUD’s decisions before. By the way, I did agree with LL and MCM comments back then but that doesn’t mean I don’t think the MUD is doing a good job. If you want a full support without comments please join chavismo, that’s the kind of attitude they are looking.
I only said that LL did not have a plan when he proposed #LaSalida and this lack of plan put him in jail. I did not say he disserved or I was glad this happened to him, interpretation that came only I dared to criticize San Leopoldo.
Politicians are humans, if you see their actions and every huge to an old gal as money that an investor is putting on a stock you will understand what I am saying. He “invested” on #LaSalida without a proper “market study” and lost his “investment” and ended up in “bankruptcy”.
LL and MCM represent the “Politics of Imposition”, they want to change governments by imposing what they believe is right. On the other hand, HC represents the “Persuading Politics”, he want to change the government by convincing people that his ideas are right.
Two different types of politicians, one has a deeper and longer-last effect that the other one which at the end is the only way we can take the country from the bottom of the ocean. We need to start pushing to the same side.
By the way, this is MY opinion but I am always open to see your point of view.
Thank you, Pepe Trueno, not just for your long-view opinion, but for your sanity. Though I appreciate many aspects of LL and MCM, I realize that they are still pichones politicos from a more dynamic wing of the MUD, HCR being from the stodgier side. I also think that both sides should continue to coexist, under the MUD umbrella, even though the pichones are currently limited in their expressions, one in particular.
Though the MUD has disappointed me over the past year or so, I realize that there is much that we don’t know about its nuts and bolts, and that in the final analysis, we have no option but to trust that this organization will take us on a viable path, out of the mess that the regime has created. The changes will not be overnight; they could take years — assuming that the light at the end of the tunnel is in equilibrium.
Does that condescending tone is really neccesary? It kind of hurts your argument.
Also, I see two opinions that I don’t know why people insist that they cannot coexist: OF COURSE that LL’s delivery of himself was a calculated political maneuver to unseat Capriles as the leader of the oppo (which, you know, it kind of worked, at least among the protesters, which are the ones taking the heat).
That doesn’t make it any less brave, because, you know, he’s still at the mercy of Godgiven and Co.
History isn’t black and white, and I don’t expect saints among the oppo. So I don’t see the need of this huge argument.
when is agreement with a commenter a condescension?
As far as LL’s delivery of himself as a calculated political maneuver to unseat Capriles as leader of the oppo, frankly, I think LL’s political instincts, as a competitor, really kicked in about a week before he gave himself up to the regime authorities. Surely LL sensed — as we all did — that people’s annoyance with HCR was on the rise. Big time. Personally I think LL seized the moment, if not for the short term, then certainly with the long term in mind. (‘Hey, prison worked for Capriles, I’ll go for it, too.’)
And yes, it’s immature to be idolizing any politician — from both sides of the spectrum.
“…, I realize that they are still pichones politicos from a more dynamic wing of the MUD, HCR being from the stodgier side.”
Suit yourself, OpUno. We all have our opinions. I hope mine stem from the wisdom (and long perspective) that comes with age. For, I’ve been around the block a couple of times, and generally check to make sure that I’m not wearing rose-coloured glasses.
Similar to Pepe Trueno, I see LL as a maverick who has good qualities, but is still too quick on the draw (not enough thought or pragmatism in his actions). That can get you into trouble, in politics, where you have to know how to finesse and navigate a ship, you have to know how to reach consensus and accord. LL has come a long way from when he aimed for the brass ring as a presidential candidate. But he still has a ways to go. I think of him as a great presidential candidate — in future years, not yet, if that were remotely possible in this political climate.
MCM is carving a formidable political niche. But, given her experience in the thick of things (in the AN), she should have anticipated the near-term consequences of her actions at the OAS. There were considerable knee-jerk actions there. And I think they were necessary! However, actions have consequences. But you should know that, right?
HCR faces monumental barriers to reasonable — and true — dialogue. He already is viewed by many in public as someone who is not in touch with the public’s need for quicker change. And yet, deep down, I can understand that it’s not easy to straddle the knife’s edge.
I guess that is a matter of expectation. Peronally, I never expected that the goverment thugs would surrender power unless civil society forced them with a massive protest movement. So, in short, I didn’t expected anything different from what we have now.
Why do you say that LL and MCM are “Politics of imposition”? Have they done anything violent to impose their criteria? I don’t think so, HC is more the “old populist safe way” politics, that is, don’t ever mention changing the clientelar model that has left Venezuela in ruins, just promise more unrealistic stuff like “higher salaries that would overcome inflation” and “be quiet, sit, and wait until the next election”.
And before Capriles’s zealots jump to my throat, you have to view that focus with a more logical eye: Maybe in the next 50 years people would really get tired of chavism and finally vote en masse (90% to 2%) once they’re fed up with commie bullshit, that’s where the infamous 058 enters, by brainwashing today’s relay generation, they won’t ever need to cheat elections later, because people will have their heads completely full of crap like in north korea, where kinchumil might claim any crazy lie, and the masses will congratulate him for being so awesome.
You need any proof of people being brainwashed? Just look at the troll that’s spewing nonsense bullshit in this very comments section, the so-called betty, who claims all sorts of lies as tautology just because the corpse’s party told them, if one day nicolazzz claims that the first man on the Moon was chavez, I’m sure morons like this betty would be ecstasic with such a lie… Uh, wait, they’ve already claimed such gigantic piles of bullshit already, like “chavez’s invented the free health care and education systems in Venezuela” or “Simón Bolívar was nursed by a cuban slave whom he deeply loved as a mother”
People must know that recovering from the quagmire where chavism has left Venezuela won’t be easy nor fast, and the longer they’re allowed to continue destroying Venezuela, the harder will be to get rid of them and the subsequent recovery.
There are many in the opposition who think that the people who are afraid of LL and MCM being too radical are just fed this propaganda by the Maduro government and opposition members who are looking for future gains.
Even if it were true that they are trying to impose something…let’s discuss that possibility….would it be so bad? Why?I wonder if people could opine on this without insult and misquote.I doubt it.
The Venezuelan propaganda machinery must be operating as non-profit now, only able to offer Kumba-ya vibes to a miniscule set of easily duped volunteers like Betty. I suspect the incentive program goes like this: “Earn your stars to Chávez’s Heaven, and feel good about the Process! Yes! For only minutes a day, promote the Revolution in English-speaking blogs, and earn your place at the left-hand side of the great
talkerliberator of the poor. What are you waiting for?”
Loser “Betty” gets sucked in every time.
Interesting that Venezuela figures at http://www.g20humanrights.com/
#1: Wrong. It was a choice not to prosecute them further. All involved were pardoned in 2007. The current charges against LL have nothing to do with 2002, and everything to do with inciting violence in 2014, which anyone who denies is a complete idiot.
#2: They were released after having been convicted and spending 2 years in jail. They didn’t “come out clean” from any process you raving moron. Learn the history of your own country.
Now, you backpedal. Before, you were claiming only some were processed, now you’re claiming all.
You also backpedal with respect to LL. Before you were happy about his current jailing due to his past, now you’re claiming his current jailing has nothing to do with the past
By the way, by “coming out clean” I am merely referring to those who serve their time should suffer no further repercussions for the same crime. In that sense, if you consider that those who the system has decided to pardon, or not process, should suffer no further consequences for those system results, and that the system should apply equally to LL as to the ones you support, then you should either be wanting LL out for lack of evidence, or those who weren’t processed in the past in for having participated in a coup.
Hypocritical or you.
Since it is notorious ( repeatedly confirmed by the reports of international bodies of all sorts) that there is no Rule of Law in Venezuela under the curren Regime and that all Court decisions are arbitrarily dictated by the Regime’s top bosses based exclusively on reasons of political expediency, any accusation against an opposition figure made by the Regime controlled judiciary or Prosecutors Office is to be considered not only suspect but as totally unworthy of any consideration whatsoever.
We must therefore rely on our own reasoned criteria to establish whether any one public figure is in violation of the Law or not . As far as LL is concerned his call for protests have always emphatized that there are not to be include any violence and that although their object is to effect a regime change it must be achieved through constitutional methods , this means that there are strong grounds for believing him to have broken no law in calling for such protests .
If people have used those protests to engage in violent acts then the responsability for those acts lies exclusively of those violent people and not on LL calling for peaceful protests .
However if we turn our eyes on the inflamatory and incitatory statement of some Regime figures ( snuff out each fire) which resulted in direclty violent acts of its followers then such figures could be guilty under the law of enticement to violence and of violating whatever laws prohibit such enticements .
Proof that there is no rule of law but a despotic regime is evident on observing that the law is applied agaisnt the opposition even where there is clearly no cause for it to be applied while it is ignored if the party violating the law is a regime figure. !!
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