Venezuela imports birther movement UPDATED (THREE TIMES NOW!)

Next up: import the Tea Party

Next up: import the Tea Party

Bloomberg’s Anatoly Kurmanaev has the run-down. The money quote:

Maduro said June 17 in Italy that he was born in the Los Chaguaramos district of Venezuela’s capital, Caracas. Foreign Minister Elias Jaua said the same day that the president is a native of El Valle district, which borders Los Chaguaramos. Tachira Governor Jose Vielma said in April that Maduro is a native of that western Venezuelan state.

Spokesmen for Venezuela’s Information Ministry and presidential office didn’t immediately answer phone calls seeking comment.

A ruling by Colombia’s Supreme Court that Maduro is Colombian would make Maduro ineligible for the presidency.

Quico pipes in: MIA from this idiot debate is the fact that even if Maduro was born in Cucuta, he’s still a “natural born Venezuelan” under Article 32 of the 1999 constitution. To wit:

Son venezolanos y venezolanas por nacimiento:

  1. Toda persona nacida en territorio de la República.

  2. Toda persona nacida en territorio extranjero, hijo o hija de padre venezolano por nacimiento y madre venezolana por nacimiento.

  3. Toda persona nacida en territorio extranjero, hijo o hija de padre venezolano por nacimiento o madre venezolana por nacimiento, siempre que establezca su residencia en el territorio de la República o declaren su voluntad de acogerse a la nacionalidad venezolana.

  4. Toda persona nacida en territorio extranjero de padre venezolano por naturalización o madre venezolana por naturalización, siempre que antes de cumplir dieciocho años de edad, establezca su residencia en el territorio de la República y antes de cumplir veinticinco años de edad declare su voluntad de acogerse a la nacionalidad venezolana.

Juan Cristóbal retorts: As several readers have pointed out, if Maduro has both nationalities and has not rescinded his Colombian one, he is not qualified to be President (which he isn’t anyway, by virtue of having the IQ of a snail).

As long as we’re going to argue this out in updates, Quico counters: I think what rankles is the failure to think politically about this, to understand the power realities at stake.

As that IAEE election report noted, there are already far more clear-cut, absolutely-beyond-interpretational-ambiguity reasons to call Maduro’s presidency plainly, straightforwardly unconstitutional: his accession to the presidency following Chávez’s death ahead of the chairman of the National Assembly was plainly unconstitutional, as was his ability to stand for election without separating himself from the office.

These things are spelled out explicitly in the constitution with no real possibility of arguing the factual basis. The power reality on the ground, based on Chavismo’s stranglehold on the TSJ, render these considerations moot. So we already know that this sort of formalistic reasoning can do nothing to undermine Maduro’s capacity to hang on to power.

That’s the context that we have to consider this in. What we’re dealing with is a conspiracy theory with much weaker factual grounding than the already public and notorious violations of March-April. And it’s a factual basis that – even if it could be unambiguously established – could be nullified in the one or two seconds it would take Nicolás Maduro to sign a letter renouncing his Colombian citizenship, even if that became necessary, which it won’t, because the TSJ has already more than openly demonstrated its willingness to keep Maduro in power regardless of far clearer, far more straightforward constitutional violations.

Maduro Birthirism is, in other words, a total waste of time: more magical thinking from an opposition that should instead be concentrated upping its clandestine game and – if it has the courage of its conviction – be focused instead on chipping away at the actual powerbase of a government held in place by its stranglehold on the military, on the supposedly-but-not-actually state institutions that ought to keep the executive in place, in a patina of international legitimacy.

Yes this topic pisses me off. It’s like we’ve learned nothing.

40 thoughts on “Venezuela imports birther movement UPDATED (THREE TIMES NOW!)

  1. Well, at the risk of mimicking ca-raaa-zy Donald Trump on this issue, I for one think it is, in our case, a legitimate one… Our constitution clearly states that the Presidente must be Venezuelan born and our man-somewhat-in-charge is not so evidently so. Why let all the confusion run rampant? To distract us? Maybe, but still.

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  2. Unlike Obama, Maduro has not shown his birth certificate. Moreover they have shown his mother and sister are Colombian and that the three of them have consecutive cédula numbers.

    This is really not positive evidence Maduro is Colombian. I still think it’s a legitimate concern that he could easily done by showing his BC.

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  3. So, I was looking into this a while ago. The thing is that a person can be at the same time “colombiano de nacimiento” y “venezolano de nacimiento”, the definitions (at least in the current constitutions) are not mutually exclusive.

    One thing can be verified, Nicolás’ mom is a Colombian citizen and has a valid Cédula (though she is not registered to vote). You can check this out here: http://web.registraduria.gov.co/servicios/certificado.htm and typing her CC: 20007077, it’ll come up with a pdf certificado

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    • The respective texts:

      “Artículo 96.-
      Son nacionales colombianos:
      1. Por nacimiento: a) Los naturales de Colombia, con una de dos condiciones: que el padre o la madre hayan sido naturales o nacionales colombianos o que, siendo hijos de extranjeros, alguno de sus padres estuviere domiciliado en la República en el momento del nacimiento. b) Los hijos de padre o madre colombianos que hubieren nacido en tierra extranjera y luego se domiciliaren en la República.”

      “Artículo 32. Son venezolanos y venezolanas por nacimiento:

      Toda persona nacida en el territorio de la República.
      Toda persona nacida en territorio extranjero, hijo o hija de padre venezolano por nacimiento y madre venezolana por nacimiento.
      Toda persona nacida en territorio extranjero, hijo o hija de padre venezolano por nacimiento o madre venezolana por nacimiento, siempre que establezcan su residencia en el territorio de la República o declaren su voluntad de acogerse a la nacionalidad venezolana.
      Toda persona nacida en territorio extranjero de padre venezolano por naturalización o madre venezolana por naturalización siempre que antes de cumplir dieciocho años de edad, establezca su residencia en el territorio de la República y antes de cumplir veinticinco años de edad declare su voluntad de acogerse a la nacionalidad venezolana”.

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  4. Los Chaguaramos and el Valle districts are not exactly neighbor’s areas.

    Los Chaguaramos is on the south of the Guaire creek and el Valle is on the north side and far away from it toward the south west, at least 20 -25 kms from it, there is no way borders los Chaguaramos.

    Los Chaguaramos borders are to the north the Central University -UCV and Santa Monica to the West, no way near el Valle, they are totally different areas.

    Do not muddle the issue; they each have different answers on where Maduro was born.

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  5. Um, “Los Chagauramos” Is very much near to “El Valle” I can see how someone who lives in “Los Chaguaramos” would say they live “Near El Valle” to someone unfamiliar with the area (South of Caracas, I guess) as it is a much more well known district

    For what is worth, Maduro’s mom supposedly lives in front of “Colegio San Pedro” which is where I vote, and I remember several people saying lived there “toda la vida”

    I dunno, unless they show substansial evidence already, this just reeks of desperation to me.

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  6. I’m sure that by now, colombian prez has the goddamn certificate under lock and key to be used when deemed necessary as a means of political blackmail? O es que soy muy mal pensada?

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  7. Fighting (arguing, discussing) for the Maduro’s birth certificate makes me fell like a extreme-conservative-crazy-tea-party-republican ignorant. Could we please change the subject? Thanks

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    • oh it’s way worse than that, Sergio.

      At least notionally if the gringo birthers had managed to establish that B.O. had been physically born outside the U.S., they would’ve had a proper legal case to make. But considering our constitution’s Art. 32, this is an opposition delusion that would be pointless even if its central factual contention was to be proved right!

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      • Not pointless, Quico, even if its central factual middle-of-the-road contentious tenet was proved right. Here’s why: the vacuum of information produced by the Maduro camp, followed by their slippin’ and slidin’ of supposed fact, which cannot be proven and creates confusion, points to character. And the character of a leader is what the public has a right to know. At least, in a democracy.

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        • add to that vacuum the now prevalent use by officials of Cuban aircraft, because, well, the Venezuelan Airbus “can’t be fixed”. Or, are those pointless delusions, as well?

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      • Quico, I read that they’re going after the fact the the President cannot have dual citizenship, rather than the “venezolano de nacimiento issue”. Wouldn’t that be (somewhat) less ridiculous?

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        • where the intricacies of constitutional law are concerned, I’d leave the study of the issue to the lawyers involved in the case. And I look forward to reading about the findings, pese a lo que diga un cierto bloguero, si me explico.

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  8. Like almost anything else we import these days, we used to produce that in abundance. “El Golfo es nuestro, el gocho es de ellos”, decían en el 88.

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  9. Quico, you are missing a point here, an important one. The Venezuelan Constitution states that there are a few but very important jobs in government for which not only you’ve got to be “venezuelan born” but you must not have *any other nationality*.

    They are (see art 41) :Presidente o Presidenta de la República, Vicepresidente Ejecutivo o Vicepresidenta Ejecutiva, Presidente o Presidenta y Vicepresidentes o Vicepresidentas de la Asamblea Nacional, magistrados o magistradas del Tribunal Supremo de Justicia, Presidente o Presidenta del Consejo Nacional Electoral, Procurador o Procuradora General de la República, Contralor o Contralora General de la República, Fiscal General de la República, Defensor o Defensora del Pueblo, Ministros o Ministras de los despachos relacionados con la seguridad de la Nación, finanzas, energía y minas, educación; Gobernadores o Gobernadoras y Alcaldes o Alcaldesas de los Estados y Municipios fronterizos y aquellos contemplados en la ley orgánica de la Fuerza Armada Nacional.

    So even if Maduro is “venezuelan born” that is not enough, if he has also the colombian nationality. he should formally renounce to that nationality in order to comply with article 41.

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  10. “Thinking you can destabilize the guy with THIS shit is just magical thinking.”

    Damn, again… No matter how distasteful this issue is to our expats and the readers of this blog, me included, this rumour, a not very fresh one by the way, is not aimed to them but to the Venezuelan Bolivarian Armed Forces. Pa los milicos, pues. It raises the possibility that Maduro, apart from being in cuban pockets, might also be a la merced de nuestro hermano-país, que la partida de nacimiento la tengan ellos, etcetera.

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  11. This is idiocy. The Birthers in the U.S. got nowhere with this argument and it only served to make them look like raving lunatics. It will serve no better in Venezuela. Stick with what you know you can prove: Election Fraud, Incompetence, Corruption, etc…

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  12. Im with Quico on this one. I thought pursuing this was a mistake from the day I first head about it. Its virtually impossible to prove if he was born in Colombia (Documentation in Cucuta circa 1960…) and even if by some miracle we can prove it im sure it wont pressure his government at all. Theres a million other things we could do that would pressure him more. The MUD should stop looking into this at least publicly and if they find evidence that he was born there just leak it to a reporter anonymously.

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  13. This sounds like the Carlos Andres (CAP) saga recycled. As a kid, I grew believing that CAP was Colombian. Maybe it was Copeyanos making up stories at the time.

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  14. Truthful or not, does it really matter? If it isn’t, it is a waste of effort and resources that will only stir up the most rabid of the opposition, who would believe he was an alien from Alpha Centauri on the slightest pretext.

    If it is, the TSJ will simply change the constitution as they see fit to make things match up nicely and do so retroactively. After all, it isn’t like there’s some sort of precedent for that.

    At the very best, this might pick away a few of the fringe followers. How will it be disbursed? Through the press? International news such as the Guardian? The warp and woof of chavismo won’t believe it anyway and cite it as a conspiracy to undermine the Revolution. As long as the television prates on and on about how its all okay and doesn’t matter, why should they care? I think the time for scandals such as this doing real damage have passed.

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  15. I think what rankles is the failure to think politically about this, to understand the power realities at stake.

    As that IAEE election report noted, there are already far more clear-cut, absolutely-beyond-interpretational-ambiguity reasons to call Maduro’s presidency plainly, straightforwardly unconstitutional: his accession to the presidency following Chávez’s death ahead of the chairman of the National Assembly was plainly unconstitutional, as was his ability to stand for election without separating himself from the office.

    These things are spelled out explicitly in the constitution with no real possibility of arguing the factual basis. The power reality on the ground, based on Chavismo’s stranglehold on the TSJ, render these considerations moot. So we already know that this sort of formalistic reasoning can do nothing to undermine Maduro’s capacity to hang on to power.

    In that context, what we come up is a conspiracy theory with much weaker factual grounding, and one that – even if it was established – could be nullified in the one or two seconds it would take Nicolás Maduro to sign a letter renouncing his Colombian citizenship, even if that became necessary, which it won’t, because the TSJ has already more than openly demonstrated its willingness to keep Maduro in power regardless of far clearer, far more straightforward constitutional violations.

    Maduro Birthirism is, in other words, a total waste of time: more magical thinking from an opposition that should instead be concentrated upping its clandestine game and – if it has the courage of its conviction – be focused instead on chipping away at the actual powerbase of a government held in place by its stranglehold on the military, on the supposedly-but-not-actually state institutions that ought to keep the executive in place, in a patina of international legitimacy.

    Yes this topic pisses me off. It’s like we’ve learned nothing.

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  16. Why is it that certain bloggers get so easily pissed off, and resort to stringing a dozen adjectives as a puerile way of stomping their feet, while quoting a general article (No. 32) from the constitution, but not the pertinent article (No. 41)? Is it manipulation, pretense or ignorance?

    Could those that are NOT constitutional lawyers please refrain from pretending that their negative opinions on a matter of interest to not a small population, is of any consequence? Thanks in advance.

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    • P.S. In case I wasn’t clear enough, ALL issues pointing to the character of a leader, where there is a vacuum of information, are worthy of discovery, whether or not that discovery is directly related to political strategy. Whining that the discovery takes away from the energies placed on political strategy implies that all the opposition is focusing their sole attention on what appears to be a diversionary tactic.

      Oh brother.

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  17. So true! This guy doesn’t plan on leaving office because he’s Colombian or Thai or whatever else.

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  18. Believe me, the only thing that is importnat here is tha if the guy is Colombian, Juan Manuel Santos’ DAS is -already- so tightly grabbing him by the balls..Oh, boy

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  19. I strongly object to the characterization of “Tea Party” activists as “extreme”, “crazy”, or “ignorant” as a group. “Birthers” and “Truthers”, sure. But “Tea Party” activists as a group are concerned about the gigantic deficits and other unquestionably serious policies of the Obama administration.

    There is no Tea Party organization to exclude fools of any sort; hostile media have picked on such individuals (or invented them) to discredit the movement.

    Don’t buy into this. It’s the equivalent of Chavistas describing the entire opposition as “Fourth Republic corruptionists” because there are some Fourth Republic figures opposed to the Chavernment. Aren’t you annoyed by foreigners who swallow such claims?

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    • Name me five politicians who you think weren’t corrupt, I’ll prove at least 4 of them were.

      Guatepeor no quita Guatemala.

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      • I hate to be the comment police here, but Faust clearly you are out of line, where in the heaven is Rich Rostrom stating that he believes that politicians are not corrupt. Seriously though or you are replying to the wrong comment or you didn’t read the comment!

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    • Yes the persons who claims that “Tea Party” activists as “extreme”, “crazy”, or “ignorant” as a group. “Birthers” and “Truthers”, must be really ignorant, or that he/she is just swallowing the democrat propaganda, just like any other Chavista eats the propaganda being thrown out by Sibci and Mario Silva.

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